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Christine -

Lots to think about here! Nice connection with the oracle cards. I do have the "72 Names" cards, and plan to set aside time to work with them in connection with the "Tarot of the Holy Light". (Thank you for adding the link to my review of the "72 Names" cards.)

BTW - Downloaded the Etteila info from Aeclectic - thank you for the heads up! I hadn't gotten tot he forum yet!


Christine Payne

Hi Bonnie --

I think the folks working in theurgical mode would calculate the angel on the Ascendent at the moment of the working, and address that when the circle is cast. Nothing wrong with doing the same for the quinary angels of the Sun's location and the Moon's location either. Plus these angels are the ones to petition for "getting things done". There's lots of resources on these guys too, in terms of powers and qualities and that sort of thing. One finds their names on pentacles and talismans as well.

The conversation over at the Aeclectic Tarot continues. I'm so grateful to have such high-quality people to discourse with, on one of my favorite topics, no less.

Christine Payne

Just a note for those stopping by: Here's a readout from my favorite astral-Grampa, Carl Boudreau. Remember that this is a composite chart between the New and Full Moons, located for Greenwich. So it's a global average that always expresses the nature of the opening square of the Lights.


This is really a comment on your 2007 article on the 72 angels. I have been searching off and on (since about 2007!) for the historic background of the attributions to the 72 angels. I've followed most of the same tracks you have, but thanks for putting it all together for us, especially the early stuff, like the Bahir.

Besides the Psalm verses in Kircher, it looks like for attributes (rather than just lists of names) we can only get as far back as Papus. But Papus says "according to Lenain." Do you have any idea who Lenain is?

I'm not sure why the history of this small bit of esoterica is so imporant to me, but I'm still on the hunt!

By the way, here are two other contemporary sources for the 72 angels: Lo Scarabeo oracle and book "Angel Voices" and "Birth Angels" by Terah Cox.

Thanks again for the info, and let me know if you know about Lenain.

Christine Payne

Thanks for the feedback, rachelcat!

If you have a copy of Papus, he has listed some of his sources on p. 149, giving the name (but not the date) of Lenain's book as _ le science Kabbalistique_. If I remember correctly this was published around 1810 (?). Papus mentions him several times.

Poking around online I found this , do you read French?

There's a whole conversation there for whoever can follow it. Seems as if the table of contents of Lenain's book is shown. Is there a chapter there that gives graphics, the talismans of the angels? I am very avid myself to see where the circular seals on the Papus pack originally come from. If you find an online copy of Lenain's angel-seals, will you please come back and tell us?

Meanwhile, the site put together by Uri Raz takes the farther back:

You'll see he gives us a set of seals taken from 'the well-known 16th century cryptographer Blaise de Vigenere'. So there's an even older lead to follow.

Keep us posted!


Christine Payne

Ok, just found the date for Lenain's book: 1823.

His full name is Lazare Lenain.

Also here's a link to the above conversation, but translated:

Christine Payne

Here's the Wikipedia article on Lenain:

He was inspired by Etteilla and D'Odoucet. Interesting!

Hey, thanks for asking, this has been a very profitable investigation.


Christine Payne

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